Feedback Reminder and Meta

[paraka]

You still have a few days to sign up for my Podfic Critical Feedback Exchange (sign ups close Wed Jan 13) but in the mean time, I thought I'd open up the floor to some review meta.

Since there hasn't been a lot of reviews in the podficing community, we haven't really developed a SOP. We don't even have that much of a common language to deal with reviews. So as I promised in the sign up post, I've written down some ideas for reviewers to comment on.

Rather than posting to my own journal, I thought I'd post here so that others could add their two cents, or give some advise of what works best for them.


Tone/Pacing: Did the reader race through the reading? Did it feel slow? Was everything in monotone? Did the emotional reading match the tone of the story?

Reading: Did the reader stumble over words? Did they mispronounce words (keep in mind the regional dialect/accent of the reader). Where there inappropriate pauses? Did the reader do voices or accents for the characters? How did that work for you? Did they need to enunciate more? Did they over enunciate? If there were sex scenes did the reading of them work for you?

Volume/Sound Quality: Was the volume loud enough/too loud to hear comfortably? Was there too much background noise to make out the wording? Was there the occasional background noise that pulled you out of the fic? Or that you found charming? What about distortion from noise removal?

Editing: Was the editing smooth and undetectable? Or could you hear each cut? Where there volume issues?

Intro/Exit: Was there an intro/exit for the podfic? Was there too much information? Not enough? Was it useful? Or boring?

Musical Additions: If there was music added to the track, did you find that it added to the over all product? Did the music match the story? How about the length of the music? Too long? Or too Short? Was the volume of the music consistent to the volume of the rest of the podfic?

Sound Effect/Other Special Effects: Did the podficer add in any special effects? If so, how did they add to (or take away from) the podfic?

Fic Choice: I know that at the moment a lot of the feedback for podfic is based around fic choice. Fic choice should not be the focus of the reviews done for my exchange but I can't deny that it plays an important part in podficing. In general though lets try a for a bit more of the technical aspects of the fic. How did the fic choice affect the recording? How suitable is a fic for podficing? How did the podficer work with various aspects to better display them in their podfic?

Additional Comments:
brimtoast: When my podfic friend and I beta each other, we also sometimes have a section for specific line readings/phrases that really worked for us or that we thought were really effective. Because it's helpful to hear the specifics of what works, too, and of course that is some of the most gratifying feedback to read, seeing places where what you were going for worked.

luzula: I don't see the distinction between the sections Tone/Pacing and Reading? Many of the questions there could go in either one, I think. I might do something like this:

Pronunciation: Did the reader stumble over words? Did they mispronounce words (keep in mind the regional dialect/accent of the reader)? Did they need to enunciate more? Did they over enunciate?

Pacing: Did the reader race through the reading? Did it feel slow? Were the pauses of an appropriate length? Did the reader vary the speed, or was it the same throughout? (I added in the last question.)

Tone/Acting: Was everything in monotone? Did the emotional reading match the tone of the story? Did the reader do voices or accents for the characters? How did that work for you? If there were sex scenes did the reading of them work for you?

Also, I would add to the editing section the question: Were there errors that should have been edited out?


A lot of these topics overlap, but I figure mentioning them will at least give people a place to start when it comes to their own reviews. It'll also be interesting since a lot of these topics come down to personal taste.

Feel free to add to the list in the comments!

Comments

[lian-li.livejournal.com]

(what does SOP mean?)

Just wanted to throw out here that I approach reviews and feedback differently -- feedback's addressed to the creator (and in 2nd person), reviews are for recipients (I talk about the creator in 3rd person.)

[paraka]

Sorry, SOP=Standard Operating Procedure.

Just wanted to throw out here that I approach reviews and feedback differently
Hmm, I think I was using the words somewhat interchangeably because regardless of whether your final product is critical feedback or a review, you still have to review the material as a first step. Then you take your review and format to which ever method you're using for reporting out.

[lian-li.livejournal.com]

oh, thanks!

see, I don't actually do that. I pick the target audience first and focus on different aspects while reading/listening.

[fleurrochard]

Yes, I would do that as well - for example if you give me a story to read I can later squee about it and maybe even write a qualified rec (if there was something that didn't really work for me), but if you want critical feedback, I have to know that upfront - I don't read that way automatically.

[paraka]

But do you really focus on different areas of the podfic if you are planning to critically examine a piece in an in depth way? That's part of what I mean when I said I use the words interchangeably. I mean, if you're writing a technical review, you're still going to think of the aspects I listed, just as you would for a critical feedback. However the write up will be adjusted since you know that creator will be reading it in one case.

I do know that those two things will be different in the write up, however the things that you examine will be the same.

I also was using the word review as a verb, to describe the action of studying the source.

[fleurrochard]

Well, yes, a technical review and critical feedback... I probably wouldn't get the idea to write a technical review. If I'd write for readers/listeners, I'd probably focus on the question: is this story/podfic fun to read/listen to (and why) - and I don't need to get into technical details there. (And if it wasn't fun to read/listen to, I wouldn't write a review. *coughs*)

Usually I only examine something critically, if I beta something (or if it's for school).

But that's me! And I understand that these words are often use interchangeably.

[paraka]

Well, yes, a technical review and critical feedback... I probably wouldn't get the idea to write a technical review.
Ahh, see, I think I'm letting my vidding background here shine through, because we do sometimes do technical reviews, just because (or, well, as a way for vidders to learn based on someone else's style). I used to be a memeber of a community that was based on doing technical vid reviews, and I've been relying heavily on my experience from that comm to do this exchange :)

[brimtoast.livejournal.com]

When my podfic friend and I beta each other, we also sometimes have a section for specific line readings/phrases that really worked for us or that we thought were really effective. Because it's helpful to hear the specifics of what works, too, and of course that is some of the most gratifying feedback to read, seeing places where what you were going for worked.

Obviously, you don't want the review to be *just* that, but yeah, it's a nice section to have.

[paraka]

Yeah, I figured that would be how most people would automatically start their feedback, so I guess I overlooked it as being too obvious, but you're right, I should have said it in my post. I've added your comment to the main post. :)

[cookiemom6067.livejournal.com]

I know that at the moment a lot of the feedback for podfic is based around fic choice

Can you talk a little bit more about this? I haven't seen a lot of feedback, other than the basic "downloading - thanks" sort. What is there to say about fic choice? Other than some translate more easily to podfic than others? Is that what is meant here? Are the feedbackers generally critical of the choice of fic? If so, why did they download it? Sorry - I just don't really understand the thrust of this particular aspect of concrit and I'm hoping you will elaborate.

I've also been wondering about music and sound effects, because I used them pretty extensively when I did the "Woobie 'Verse" for Podbang and later realized, upon reading some comments elsewhere that sound effects particularly are sometimes annoying to the listener. Do you (in the broad sense - those responding to this discussion) consider podfic a "performance" in the sense of additions being appropriate, or do you consider the podfic more an extension of the fic itself, and prefer that the reader present the fic as free of their interpretation as possible?

I realize that's black and white - where are you on the continuum from the one to the other? Do you consider reader additions to fic to detract from the experience or to enhance it?

In my most recent podfics, I've not added much, except music at the beginning and end, waiting, I suppose, to pose this question and get input from the listener community.

Irealized, when re-listening this week to part 1 of "Woobie," that some of the cues are mistimed, so that they obscure some of the reading more than they originally did when I added them - editing of the story caused them to be out of sync. I would like to fix that and resubmit it, but fear it may be too late for listeners that already downloaded/listened. Do you think resubmitting it is a good idea or a bad idea?

[brimtoast.livejournal.com]

I think she means that a lot of times you'll get comments like, "Oh, awesome. I love this fic. Thanks!" So it compliments the fic and does not actually say anything about your reading. I think it's for the same reason that people leave the "downloading—thanks" comments, which is that most of the time people do think to comment, it's while they're looking at the post, which is before they've actually listened.

And I know people have a lot of different opinions on music and sound effects, but to throw mine in there, I like it when it's done well, meaning: the editing is smooth, the sound clips are short, the mood fits the story, and the volume is the same so that switching between music/sound effects and talking will not hurt my ears or make me need to reach for the volume button.

I want music in mine, but for some reason am really bad at putting it in. So my friend who *does* put music in hers offered to add music to my next one for me, so I can see if I like it. I'm really excited for it.

[paraka]

I think she means that a lot of times you'll get comments like, "Oh, awesome. I love this fic. Thanks!" So it compliments the fic and does not actually say anything about your reading.
*nods* exactly. Knowing that people like the fic that you've podficed can be useful, you know you're hitting a wider audience, but still, it doesn't help you grow that much as a podficer.

I want music in mine, but for some reason am really bad at putting it in. So my friend who *does* put music in hers offered to add music to my next one for me, so I can see if I like it. I'm really excited for it.
I am soooo like that. I like most of the music that's added to podfics (or at the very least am indifferent to it) and kind of want to add some to mine, but have no idea which songs to choose. Which is odd, since I'm also a vidder, you'd think I'd be better at choosing music (although I know why it doesn't work, since with vidding I build a story around the song, with podficing, the story is already built and I need to fit the song to it).

This morning I contemplated doing a podfic for a fic I was reading, simply because it was inspired by a song and I could experiment with adding music to podfic. :P

Fic Choice in Podfic

[paraka]

Wow, I have issues being succinct. *headdesk*

Can you talk a little bit more about this?
Sure, using one of my own examples, here is one of my Podbang entries. As you can see in the comments, a lot of them are something along the lines of "OMG! I love this fic! I'm so glad someone made a podfic to it!" Which is awesome and fun to see, since I too love the fic and am glad that people are happy to have a podfic to it. However it's a comment left before they even listen to the podfic in most cases and doesn't tell me anything about whether they actually liked my reading of the podfic.

There are some podficers that I love and adore, dodificus for example, not just because they are good readers (although they are that too!) but because we have similar fic tastes. Chances are if that reader liked a fic enough to record it, I'm also going to enjoy it. There are also some readers, that I will not name, that I follow and love, even though I don't always enjoy their reading style, simply because we have similar fic tastes.

Podfics are sort of like a fic rec, because you're not going to put the time and effort into podficing a fic that you don't like.

I can think of only two examples (for myself) where I liked a podfic more than I liked the story. Where as I can think of far more podfics that I like (because it's a good story) despite not completely liking the readers style. The fic is a huge part of the podfic.

I'm a vidder, so to draw a parallel, fic choice in podfic can be like song choice in vidding. There are some vids out there that I totally respect the vidder and can see that they are really awesome at their art, however, while I can appreciate the technical qualities of the vid, if the song it is set to is one that I hate, I'm never going to be able to love the vid. It's never going to be a vid that I put on a playlist and watch over and over again. Whereas a different vid, done by another vidder with half the talent of the first one, will make my playlist, will be one that I watch over and over again, simply because I enjoy the song it's set to.


Sorry - I just don't really understand the thrust of this particular aspect of concrit and I'm hoping you will elaborate.
And yeah, all that said, I don't really want people to focus on how much they enjoyed a fic for my feedback exchange because fic choice is supremely personal and not really something that the review should be trying to change in the podficer.

I still think the fic can, and maybe should, be worked into the podfic review. There are some fic styles that you're going to have to work around in your podfic (like fics that have emails, do you read the subject line and all the Re:Re:Re's that can show up in front?). Or aspects of fics that you can use make your podfic more awesome.

A couple examples:
-When You Care Enough To Hit Send read by juice817. In this fic the characters keep sending each other ecards, and in the written version of it, they have the ecards imbedded as images. That's obviously not possible for podfics, so juice817 had to work around that for her podfic. Some podficers might even decide that it would be impossible to podfic such a fic (although I think juice817 did an awesome job of it and I'm sooo glad she didn't let it stop her).
-Crown of the Summer Court read by fayjay. In this fic the author has a very distinct way of describing the fairy voices as this echoing boom. Rather than just reading the fairies in a normal voice (which would have been perfectly acceptable), fayjay used that aspect of the fic to enhance her podfic by using effects when speaking as the faeries (and OMG did an amazing job of it! I am in awe over her skills at getting the echo in while still having everything be totally clear and easy to understand).

Performance in Podfic

[paraka]

Do you (in the broad sense - those responding to this discussion) consider podfic a "performance" in the sense of additions being appropriate,
I haven't listened to any of your podfics yet, although I have them downloaded and they're in line for me to listen to, so I can't speak to you specifically. However I think effects and music are one of those things that is intensely personal for the listeners (and readers).

My first gut reaction is to say that if you enjoy adding them, continue to do so, since you're making these for yourself first. Although, if you're able, it can be considerate to offer a version with music (or effects) and one without (for those that find them jarring).

It can be helpful to understand why some people don't like extras in their podfic. There are quite a few people that listen to podfic as they're falling asleep, so if the music or effect you're doing comes with a sudden volume change, that can wake the listener up, or bring them out of their drowse. If you're aware of that as a reason, you can edit things so the volume is more even.

Some special effects/music can make it harder to understand what is going on. If there's music playing under the reading, some aren't able to hear the reading. Or if the special effects distort the reading some people get lost. cofax7 wrote an open letter to podfic readers about some of the disabilities podfic consumers might approach a podfic with, making it hard for them to listen to certain podfics.


Speaking for myself, I'm very open to performance and special effects. Some of my favourite podfics are ones that have something extra. The two podfics that I mentioned liking more than the fics they were based on, I liked because of something extra, one because of the music they added (there wasn't anything wrong with the fic, it was just a subject that I just don't enjoy that much, but the podficer did a really good job of working music into the podfic, almost as an extension of the scenes she was adding the music to the ends of). Or there's another one, Them Other Boys Don't Know How to Act read by ponceflower where, while I enjoy the fic, I completely love the way she reads it. She does voices! She does voices that sound a lot like the actors from the show! I can tell exactly who's talking just because of her awesome job of imitating the characters! While the fic is good, I know I never would have listened to the podfic of it as many times as I have, had it been read by another reader.

So yes, for me, performance and special effects can be awesome, however I'd be lying if I said they don't sometimes make me cringe. Because for all the people out there that put these extras in and make them rock, there are far more people that put them in and don't do such an amazing a job at it. Probably my biggest pet peeve is accents. If you're American and reading in a British fandom (or any accent to any other accented fandom), I'd much rather you read in your own accent than read the fic in a bad imitation accent (especially with British shows, since there can often be a variety of accents in the cast making it a huge ordeal to do with any sort of accuracy). Or I think of all the SGA podfics where Zelenka and Carson mysteriously have the same accent. *headdesk*

It kind of comes down for me, that if you're going to be putting these extras in, I would like you to do them well. However I recognize that people need to test things out and without practice no one will ever get better so even as I wrote the previous sentence, I still rolled my eyes at myself. All that said, unless the podficer does an amazingly horrible job at it (which is very, very rare), or if the fic is one I don't like, I'm generally able to get past those personal annoyances and still enjoy the podfic.

But most of that is very much just my own personal opinion.

Performance in Podfic Pt. 2

[paraka]

do you consider the podfic more an extension of the fic itself, and prefer that the reader present the fic as free of their interpretation as possible?
I don't think the two (extension of the fic vs. performance) are mutually exclusive. The podfic is definitely an extension of the fic itself, but I don't think it's possible to read a fic without adding your own interpretation (unless maybe you read in a monotone?), without preforming the story to some extent. If you (generic listener) want the fic on it's own with nothing added, then really, just get a screen reader. I can't deny that a readers interpretation can throw a listener out of the podfic, I know it's happened to me, where something is emphasized differently than I would have done, than I had read in my head (hell, sometimes it's even been the author making the podfic) but that's part of podfic. A reader's interpretation can also bring the listener a whole new impression of the fic. There are a lot of people who haven't read the fic that a podfic is based on, so their only interpretation is going to be through the podfic, and by extension the podficers interpretation of the source material.

I think, in the end, a reader just has to read how they feel most comfortable and in a way that gives them the most satisfying end product. Trying to cater to the audience is pretty much impossible right now, since the audience is so split. But again, I don't think it hurts to be aware of the divide; if only so you are aware and concious of the decision you're making.

Do you think resubmitting it is a good idea or a bad idea?
Well, there are going to be a lot of listeners that will end up with the original, but I would still suggest resubmitting if you're willing to take the time. I know that I'm constantly downloading older podfics as I discover new fandoms, or as someone recs one, or because something's happened and I lost a file. There will always be new people downloading it.

[luzula]

I don't see the distinction between the sections Tone/Pacing and Reading? Many of the questions there could go in either one, I think. I might do something like this:

Pronunciation: Did the reader stumble over words? Did they mispronounce words (keep in mind the regional dialect/accent of the reader)? Did they need to enunciate more? Did they over enunciate?

Pacing: Did the reader race through the reading? Did it feel slow? Were the pauses of an appropriate length? Did the reader vary the speed, or was it the same throughout? (I added in the last question.)

Tone/Acting: Was everything in monotone? Did the emotional reading match the tone of the story? Did the reader do voices or accents for the characters? How did that work for you? If there were sex scenes did the reading of them work for you?

Also, I would add to the editing section the question: Were there errors that should have been edited out?

[paraka]

This post wasn't meant to be an outline or form for reviews/critical feeback, more a jumping off point where people could consider what aspects to pay attention to when listening to podfics. I knew as I was writing this up that there was a lot of overlap in the sections and that not all the sections would apply (or would work better smushed into one, or drawn out into more) to all podfics or podfic reviewers.

Thanks for the clarifications! I've added your comment to the original post.

[emeraldsedai.livejournal.com]

I'm very happy to see this conversation! Ever since you posted the Critical Feedback Exchange, I've been listening to podfic with that in mind--what constructive criticism would I offer on this podfic? I've independently come up with pretty much exactly the same set of criteria that you offer here.

I see from earlier comments that there's a lot of interest in the "choice of fic" question. I get that one completely. One's type of voice (I mean, their physical, vocal-cord voice), one's accent, and one's style of reading will always be better suited to some types of fic than others. This is true in the professional audiobook world, where there are romance voices and non-fiction voices and fantasy voices and classics voices--and they aren't the same people at all!

It's not that we have to limit ourselves to that one type of fic once we discover it, but I do think every reader can identify some types where they're going to soar, and that would be a good piece of information for each of us to have in our back pocket.

[diurnal-lee.livejournal.com]

That sure would be useful information. Does it take recording a dozen different styles of fic to figure it out?

[emeraldsedai.livejournal.com]

I just wandered back to this thread for a look, and I'm thinking that you might have intended this comment in response to mine, just above, about how each reader probably has a couple of best types of fic.

And if so, then no, I don't think we have to actually record and complete a wide range of fic styles to figure out which is our best. I suspect any of us could start reading a story aloud, without even a microphone in the room, and feel right or wrong about it, don't you?

[josieb1.livejournal.com]

Hi, just got my assignment thanks, can I just ask are we supossed to compare the recording to to actual text as well? I normally listen while commuting so that would be a bit difficult. Thanks

[paraka]

While this is a freeform concrit and you can, of course, concrit as you see fit, I personally don't think it's necissary to compare it to the text. That seems more the job of a beta than a reviewer. Also, I have a feeling that most people don't listen to a podfic with the written works in front of them, so if someone says a sentence slightly differently most people won't notice.

Although, you could check out the original text to see if the reader matched the feel that you get from reading it, but that seems a bit more personal and is kind of above and beyond for this exchange.

[josieb1.livejournal.com]

I have quickly scanned down the comments posted so far as I need to get to work, so sorry if I go off track a bit, but I just wanted to say that normally I don't post negative comments at all for pod fics, and I am sure many others don't either, we download a pod fic we either already like the story of, of one that appeals and then listen to it.

Some are great, and some are not, usually the 'are nots' are down to background noise, volume levels, or in the odd case for me, accent. If I can't, or don't like listening to a particular pod fic I will simply delete it from my pc and move onto another one.

I would never complain or leave critical feedback as I appreciate the readers time and effort in creating the pod fic, and just because I don't like it doesn't mean someone else doesn't love it.

My challenge for this feedback is to be critical (if need be), as its just not in my nature.

[paraka]

Some are great, and some are not, usually the 'are nots' are down to background noise, volume levels, or in the odd case for me, accent.
That's exactly the kind of feedback that can be useful here (well, except for the accent part). There are podficers who are doing things that don't bother them but bother listeners. And since no one tends to mention it, podficers never find out and keep making the same "mistakes", even if it would be rather easy to change them, if they knew about it.

I would never complain or leave critical feedback as I appreciate the readers time and effort in creating the pod fic, and just because I don't like it doesn't mean someone else doesn't love it.
My challenge for this feedback is to be critical (if need be), as its just not in my nature.
See, the whole point of this exchange was to get some more in depth critical feedback. Critical feedback doesn't have to be bad! In fact, in you critical feedback you can say "I liked X very much! Great job!" However a lot of podficers want a bit more information. Like "You're editing could be tightened up, you missed some flubs at time X, Y, and Z" or "The music you chose felt really appropriate for this fic, however I felt that it should have been shorter" or similar.

The whole point is to help podficers create better products. Fan products aren't done in a vacuum, and even though we do this for love, that doesn't mean we don't want other people to love it too. Often producers want the widest audience possible to enjoy it, so if they are doing something people don't enjoy, they want to know about it. Pointing something out doesn't mean that they'll change how they do things, but it might, and for the better. Or at the very least, the podficer is making a choice about how they do things instead of just assuming it's the only way.

This is, obviously, the first podfic feedback exchange I've taken part in, but I've actually based a lot of this off of a vidding feedback exchange I took part in about 5 years ago. As a producer, I can't tell you how much of an impact that review had on my product. The reviewer that I had pointed out a few little mistakes in an theme I had within my vid and it blew me away. In a good way! Because the thing is? I was new to vidding and didn't really know what I was doing. Mostly I was imitating what was around me, but didn't know what it was I was actually trying for. When my reviewer pointed out those mistakes to me, everything slotted into place and I went from blindly imitating, to mastering that effect. It changed how I vid forever, and in a good way that actually made things a lot clearer and easier from then on. I bring up this example because we're always told "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all" especially in fandom, but sometimes kindly pointing out mistakes is a good thing. The people who put their vids up for review in this exchange are aware of that, and in fact are seeking that experience. So really, while I know it can be hard to be critical, it can also be really important.

And, on a personal note, I happen to know the podficer whose podfic you've been assigned (I live with her even :) so I know that she's open to critical feedback, no matter how small or nit picky it is. You don't have to worry about hurting her feelings.

[josieb1.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for replying, its cleared up some concerns for me.