podmod: (Default)
[personal profile] podmod posting in [community profile] amplificathon
For the most part, podficcers and authors get along pretty well but there have always been the occasional situations where things don't go as smoothly. Maybe an author doesn't get podfic, has been rude or hurtful in their response to a request for permission to podfic. Maybe they asked for something unusual when giving their permission, such as a sample of your podfic, that left you feeling uncomfortable.

Being on the wrong end of those interactions is never fun and a lot of us keep it to ourselves but the problem with that, is that the next podficcer who asks permission might end up in the same situation.

To save other podficcers from the same fate, we'd like to create a list of authors podficcers might want to be careful about. This can be because the author will say no, but it can also be warnings for other things. Like, that an author was hard to deal with, or they that they'll host a copy of your podfic without tell you, etc.

If the author has a public, "no to podfic" somewhere, they can be added to the Blanket No To Podfic List (the sadder sister list to the Blanket Permission to Podfic List that already exists, since it's on Fanlore, anyone can edit the list or you can leave a comment with a link to the statement and we'll add them).

To be clear, this isn't a blacklist, it's a resource for podficcers to they can know an author's history before moving forward on a podfic project. Not everyone listed on this amplificathon post will be a blanket no author, some may even be a blanket yes author. What some people find uncomfortable, others will be fine with, this is more of a heads up post.

Anonymous commenting welcomed.

List of Authors

Re: hackthis

Date: 2012-11-04 05:54 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
They've recently clarified that as no permission will be given at this time, so I'd consider that a no.

Re: cesperanza

Date: 2012-11-04 08:08 pm (UTC)
cybel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cybel
Added note:

Speranza not only allows podfic but has always treated podfic (and other riffs on her work) with a huge YAY!!! And yes, if she knows about it, she generally adds it to her site, here, automatically and has always done so. :-)
Edited Date: 2012-11-04 08:12 pm (UTC)

Re: cesperanza

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Re: cesperanza

From: [personal profile] cybel - Date: 2012-11-04 08:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Re: cesperanza

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Re: cesperanza

Date: 2012-11-06 11:26 pm (UTC)
cantarina: donna noble in a paper crown, looking thoughtful (Default)
From: [personal profile] cantarina
Relevant question: Will [personal profile] cesperanza take down a podfic if requested to? Or not created the upload at all if asked not to?

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Date: 2012-11-04 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Blanket no (http://svilleficrecs.livejournal.com/1005572.html) from [livejournal.com profile] svilleficrecs.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-11-06 12:22 pm (UTC)
shinetheway: water sign (Default)
From: [personal profile] shinetheway
Oh man, I read that and just had to laugh. The bit where she fumes at people posting without asking, and then someone's like "uh, I asked, you ignored me" and she's all "la la la whatever" is hilarious.

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Date: 2012-11-04 06:52 pm (UTC)
chestnut_filly: A close-up photograph of auburn hair in a French braid (Default)
From: [personal profile] chestnut_filly
[community profile] mirabellafic has a blanket no.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-11-04 08:11 pm (UTC)
anna_unfolding: (Default)
From: [personal profile] anna_unfolding
I would like to go on the record as being deeply uncomfortable with this post. A list of authors who have given "blanket no permission" is very helpful, not only to podficcers, but also to the authors. It respects and honors their stated "no."* But a list of authors in this post who have once said no to people, or who have perhaps not been consistently respectful of podficcers in their communication, feels ultimately unhelpful to our goals.

Hearing about one of our fellow podficcers being told "no" after being asked to provide a sample of her work was upsetting to me this morning. My immediate reaction was to find out who this author was so that I would not interact with them as a podficcer. My desire to not interact with them, mind, was based on wanting to blacklist them and deprive them of my gifts and attention as a podficcer. It was a bit vindictive, that impulse. And I swallowed it after asking myself, what is the purpose of this? What will it accomplish?

Giving fellow podficcers a heads up about authors who have said no or done potentially hurtful things feels like it's a kind thing to do, a way of protecting our own. But how does an author get on this list? By someone commenting that the author once said no to a permission request? That doesn't seem reason for us to flag that author publicly. We don't know what happened, or whether the author was respectful, or why they said no, or what the circumstances were. I don't want a list of names going around, especially without an articulation of what we do expect from an author when communicating with us, and a clear explanation of in which ways the stated author violated those expectations. This list here feels uncomfortable mostly because it's based on here-say. (I acknowledge to those of you who put an author on this list that potentially that author really hurt your feelings, and you legitimately want to prevent that from happening to others. Your experience was real and your intention is protective and good. But we don't all know each other, and there are no details given here, and no opportunity for the author to explain. This is why I use the term "here-say;" I do not use it to disregard or negate what happened to each of you.)

I would prefer for podficcers to share their stories with their friends, perhaps, if they feel the need to warn each other about an author, but this post/list feels like a strong suggestion of judgment here, with no explanation, no chance for the authors to explain themselves.

Would we be comfortable linking the authors on this list to this post and telling them they are being publicly noted for being problematic for podficcers? Does any of us have enough information on each of them to defend their existence on the list? Are those of us who commented here to add an author prepared to explain why the author's refusal of permission should equate to being stigmatized like this?

I repeat that I understand wanting to protect each other, and wanting give each other a heads up about authors who don't always give permission. But I don't like the cost in this case. I don't think the warning we get here, which is non-specific anyway, outweighs the cost of publicly stigmatizing other fen based on what might just be one or two interactions that weren't very podficcer-friendly in the eyes of one podficcer.

I can't think of why it's helpful to us to know a list of authors who once denied permission, not unless that author has made a blanket statement.

If we are asking permission of someone who is not on the "yes" blanket permission list, we know they might say no. We are already prepared for that possibility if we are asking permission.

I think efforts like normalizing blanket permission and publicizing the blanket permission list are super helpful for our long term goals. Direct communication to an author who perhaps doesn't understand podfic culture is also helpful (i.e. responding to their request for a sample of our work with a statement about why in general podficcers resist the call to be auditioned). Meta that gets circulated during pod-aware and other times about the ways we can behave that signal to authors how to treat us are super helpful. This list? Doesn't give me information I actually need to know (and without specifics, I'd say the information isn't really helpful at all). It doesn't communicate back to the authors and doesn't provide fellow podficcers with the resources or words to navigate difficult conversations with said authors.

I would be willing to write up some sample comments that fellow podficcers could pull from when they are asked for a sample of their work. I would be willing to articulate and circulate some collective thoughts on how we prefer to be treated by fic authors. I would be willing to write a "To Fanfiction Authors, Re: some cultural things you might want to be aware of when interacting with podficcers, Love, from one author-podficcer." But I am not willing to be a part of a public list of problematic authors like this.





*for the record, I am of the position that requiring permission from a fanfiction author to record their publicly posted fic and post the podfic publicly is actually not necessary. I understand that requesting permission (or looking for blanket permission) is part of our podfic/author history and culture and I abide by that custom. I can speak more about this to anyone who's interested, but it's not our topic here so I'm not elaborating further in this thread. :) Pod-aware meta? I BETTER GET TO WORK, lol.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-11-04 08:29 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
This is a post in a podficcer space. There are reasons that it isn't a fanlore post; it is political, it is meaningful, it does have a point of view, and it is a response to unpleasant and disrespectful situations.

Situations where we, as podficcers, are told we are "creepy" and "annoying" at the same time that we are given permission "so that we will go away" are a problem. So is the message, over and over, that our fanwork is a format shift, or exists at the whim of someone else.

Is this a fluffy bunny post? No. But I'd rather not have to duplicate the same bad experience another poficcer suffered just because sie and I aren't bffs.

My understanding is that the authors included here as "no podfic" have made blanket no statements - just not somewhere they can be publicly cited. I'd prefer to not annoy them and waste my own time by trying to ask permission of them that I won't get.

I abide by the custom of not posting a podfic publicly without permission because it's continuous with the "do not archive without permission" custom that precedes it, from pre-lj internet fandom. Beyond the inertia of that expectation, I agree, it's not necessary.

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Date: 2012-11-04 08:32 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
would you be willing to talk more about your asterisk point? because i'm interested in hearing about it!

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Date: 2012-11-04 08:55 pm (UTC)
anna_unfolding: (Default)
From: [personal profile] anna_unfolding
lol, I mean "hearsay" not "here-say."

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Date: 2012-11-05 12:56 am (UTC)
adistantsun: (maru will always listen)
From: [personal profile] adistantsun
Just a suggestion, might be worth including a short note on why each author is on the list in-post, just to be clear? eg. Cesperanza is pro-podfic, but automatically archives?

(no subject)

Date: 2012-11-05 09:51 am (UTC)
shinetheway: water sign (Default)
From: [personal profile] shinetheway
I would like to go on record as comfortable with this post. And also, I'm not quite sure why [personal profile] anna_unfolding quashed her impulse to fannishly shun the person who was so, let's face it, fucking MEAN as to inflict an audition on someone who wanted to transform a piece of artwork into a stunning new piece of art. AND THEN REJECT HER.

Shunning, it seems, exists to show such people that this behavior is not allowed. It's how fandom deals with people who break the social covenant. We'd shun someone who emailed a fic to an actor or musician, we'd shun someone who plagiarized, so why is it such a horrible thing to think "wow, that was awful, I don't want to interact with that person?"

And this list isn't a blacklist. This list isn't a "oh my god, look how elite and ~selective we are" list. This list isn't a "PODFIC IS SPECIAL, RESPCECT MAH AUTHORITAH!" list. This is a list of people who, when faced with a person asking if they could do podfic, acted in a way that is less than ideal--so buyer beware.

Who's on the list? Some might say that it's unfair to label someone as worthy of caution. We're infringing on the rights of people to be people, or something like that. I won't go into the Five Geek Social Fallacies here, but fandom is RIFE with them. We could be trampling on people's right to say no or control their own narrative, playing a name-and-shame game, or doing any number of unsavory peer-pressure things.

Except...we aren't.

Let's be honest--we're all quirky people, with quirky responses to things. And I don't think there's a single one of us, podficcer or not, who thinks that the thing to do with a person asking to podfic our stories is to ask for a sample, listen to the sample, GRADE THE SAMPLE, and then tell the author that no, after careful review of their submitted sample of work they are denied permission. With the implication--I don't know if it was stated, but who knows? maybe it was?--that permission might have been granted if they were different. Or someone else. Or better. (Definitely better.)

Not a single one of us would be okay with that, because that is NOT COOL, and so I for one would very much like to know who the hell that person is so I can never contact them ever about anything. And I don't think I'm alone.

This is the greylist, opposed to the blacklist or the whitelist. This is the dubcon list. This is the "handle with care" list. And speaking on behalf of no one but myself, a brand fucking newbie in podfic, I really like the idea that I can have someone pull me aside (in list format) and quietly say "okay, girl, go for it, but just--be careful with this one." I don't agree that warnings should be a secret whisper between Those In The Know, when Those In The Know are going to be the most able to weather the disappointments and confusion of an author who just doesn't play by the rules. I don't think that newbies should be the ONLY ONES who don't know that a certain person is toxic, or archives without warming, or even just unpredictable when dispensing permission from fic to fic and person to person. I don't think a person maybe summoning up her courage for the very first time should be made to go where where angels fear to tread because the podfic community doesn't want to air dirty laundry in public.

This list doesn't give details. (The comments might, and surely anyone curious will check for more, but it doesn't give details. Yet.) Maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't. Maybe hurt, confused, offended, and upset fen shouldn't be made to explain exactly how a person hurt their feelings, maybe it should just be enough to know that once a person did. Maybe we should trust the people reading the list to know that just because a person once hurt someone's feelings, that doesn't mean they're going to be a monster--or a saint--to the next person to come along.

But I don't think it matters. I don't know everyone on this list but I know a couple people and they aren't bad people. God knows I won't consider them to be bad people just because they appear on a list on a podfic comm. But I also won't bother to write to them to ask permission to podfic something. Because there are fifty-eight quintillion people out there who have enthusiastic-consent podfic policies, me among them, and why should I waste my time? And if one of these people has written THE STORY OF MY HEART, well, I know that by asking I'm risking getting my heart broken.

A life lesson learned, and braced for. That seems fair.

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Date: 2012-11-05 10:09 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Thank you _so_ much for your comment.

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Date: 2012-11-05 08:45 pm (UTC)
desertport: a very dark shot of Sam and Dean, probably in the car (sam and dean)
From: [personal profile] desertport
I'd like to add a couple of thoughts to the discussion. Overall, I think a list of blanket-no's might be useful, but the addition of other people on this list makes me a little uncomfortable. Mainly because:

1. If a podficcer and an author have an awkward and/or negative interaction re: permission in private communication, is it really fair for the podficcer to add the author's name to a public list? I mean, quoting people from private e-mail or locked posts is considered unethical. Why is it different to summarize your interpretation of a private communication for all to see? This blindsides the author and puts her in a position of having to clarify a position she never volunteered for public consumption in the first place.

2. There's the possibility in all instances of communication that the other person/people will respond with negativity, rudeness, or outright unreasonable demands (such as requesting samples for audition). I feel like by making these points in this forum, for example, I risk being replied to without the level of sensitivity that puts me at ease. (No worries, reply as you will.:) It would be nice to avoid that, but since that's impossible short of me deciding to remain silent, I can only jump in, take the risk, and try to give anyone who responds the benefit of a doubt as to the tone of their response. If someone says something hurtful, that's their issue, not mine. I'll either withdraw from the conversation or address that person directly (depending on how many spoons are in my drawer today). I'm not going to go post in my journal that so and so was rude and warn my flist to avoid hir.

...Especially since I might be totally misinterpreting a strongly worded response as intentional rudeness.

3. Sometimes I do or say things I regret. I may not talk about them, but I usually resolve not to do or say those things in the future. People change. If a conversation with an author twigs you as awkward or negative, chances are the author might have sensed the same thing and resolved to be nicer in the future. This may be naive of me to think, but it does happen. (And sometimes it doesn't.)

4. If you have had a negative interaction with an author and feel responsible for helping others avoid the same, it might be more ethical to be direct with the author about hir behavior. For instance, if the author asks for samples for audition, a podficcer might let the author know the request is rude, and that if that's the policy, to publicly say so in a sticky post or on hir masterlist. Or if an author prefers certain of hir fics not be podficced, but welcomes it for other fics, then asking the author to say so and/or mark the fics on hir masterpost would also be appropriate.

5. This post, for all intents and purposes, will deter people from approaching the people listed. Is it fair to limit someone's chances of getting podficced without their explicit consent? It's well-meaning, but the chances of misinterpreted communications, incomplete info on an author's policy, the author's bad opinion of podfic being outdated and replaced with a good opinion, and a lot of other possibilities makes the list problematic and unfair to authors (even those who are themselves problematic).

That's about it. Thoughts?

(no subject)

Date: 2012-11-05 09:05 pm (UTC)
cybel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cybel
My drawer is empty of spoons, and I'm presently unable to compose a thoughtful, cogent post regarding this complex issue and my feelings about it. However, I feel your comments are a valuable addition to this conversation from a somewhat different viewpoint from many of the others, and I thank you for offering them.

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my apology

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my apology

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Date: 2012-11-06 05:16 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
First, I'd like to say that I agree with having a "blanket no" post, but that's not what this is. This is a post of people who have said no to podfic, have been hostile to podficcers in the past, or have done something that someone did not like.

As others have said before me, this is political and posting this in Amplificathon makes it look as though this is a general consensus of the podfic community and not something that select few have decided to create on a whim. Saying that this list can stay up there for the people who like it, while disregarding those who do not, ignores the reality that this is, first and foremost, a "podfic community endorsement."

For instance, if the leader of a nation went on record saying, "I hate and don't believe in X," he/she would have made a personal statement on a political platform, with the backing of that position. Whether the leader liked it or not, it would influence future interactions in that community and elsewhere. Podfic fandom shouldn't hide away for fear of being shunned, though fighting ignorance with hostility is not the answer. We need to find a way to accommodate readers and authors and foster real communication, instead of making decisions from a place of vulnerability and pain.

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Date: 2012-11-06 07:47 pm (UTC)
cantarina: donna noble in a paper crown, looking thoughtful (Default)
From: [personal profile] cantarina
I'm tentatively in support of a list like this. I'm really well connected in podfic fandom; that means I'm likely to get this information first or second-hand within a relatively short period of time. Not everyone has that privilege for all kinds of really valid reasons, but I know that regardless of my ability to network, I'd want to know if an author was likely to archive my work without notice or permission, or if (regardless of whether or not I thought I might pass) an author would audition me. I want to be able to make informed decisions about any situations I place myself in.

That said, I also think it needs much more heavy contextualization. An anon suggested a post called "Complicated Permission Policies" and i think that that's a really brilliant title for this kind of list. I have iffy feelings about the currently format of the list (just the list of names) but appreciate that linking to discussion threads is probably most effective way to allow for the sharing of wider perspectives and experiences. I think that a comment at the top of the list of authors asking people sharing information about authors already on this list to please add to existing threads is necessary, though, so the discussions are as full as possible and not fractured.

I think the "blanket no" list on Fanlore is really useful. Authors who've made that kind of public statement are probably going to want that information to be as well understood as possible and while quotes can always and always be taken out of context, they're so far being used in a helpful way and I think that most of podfic fandom is going to gun for a continuation of that. Also, keeping that list on Fanlore lets authors make edits directly if they feel they've been misquoted, which means they're not disenfranchised, which is A+
Edited (Edited for clarity.) Date: 2012-11-06 07:49 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2012-11-07 01:32 am (UTC)
majoline: picture of Majoline, mother of Bon Mucho in Loco Roco 2 (Default)
From: [personal profile] majoline
This is an excellent way of putting that - Complicated Permission Policies.

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Date: 2012-11-07 07:17 am (UTC)
shinetheway: water sign (Default)
From: [personal profile] shinetheway
In the heat and passion of discourse, I said something that didn't come out the way I intended it in one of my comments.

I won't try to explain or justify my statement, since the purpose of this isn't to offer a "but what I *really* meant was...!" and "but this is *why* I think...!".

I'm not going to make excuses for it. If I wanted to explain myself better, the obvious time to do that was BEFORE I hit Post. But I didn't. No matter how good the point might have been in my head, I expressed it badly--maybe I couldn't have possibly expressed it well--and because of that I hurt people.

That's my fault, and I sincerely apologize.

I don't know if I offended more people than those courageous enough to stand up and say so, but that's irrelevant since even one person who was hurt by my remarks is one too many.

As I think I've made enough of a contribution to the topic, I'll conclude my participation in this debate, and let other voices carry on.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-11-07 06:56 pm (UTC)
desertport: Kaneda on his bike (Default)
From: [personal profile] desertport
You're forgiven, as far as I'm concerned. Thank you for the very classy apology. :)

(no subject)

Date: 2013-08-29 08:53 pm (UTC)
cybel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cybel
Does this "gray area" list even exist anywhere outside of this post? If not, how likely is it that podficcers, especially new ones, would ever be likely to see, be aware of, or be helped in any way by its existence in future?

Also, since no one seems inclined to add to the list, and as all of those on it are there for issues that have apparently now been resolved (i.e. Speranza was made aware of the problem and is now linking to podfics of her stories rather than archiving them; maya/mistful, hackthis, stereomer, and torchthisnow/londondrowning are now on the Blanket No To Podfic List), shouldn't their names be removed, or at least stricken through in the post to indicate this? Not everyone would know to click on their names to find the comments associated with them.

Mind you, I'm in no way indicating that the massive discussion to be found here is not interesting or should be altered or stifled. Just that the original list is no longer useful as it is presented.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-08-31 05:49 am (UTC)
aethel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] aethel
Could the list be blanked out or have some addendum indicating that this is an abandoned project that no one wants to touch with a ten-foot pole?

(no subject)

Date: 2013-08-31 07:26 am (UTC)
cybel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cybel
I suggested the same thing the other day after the sudden new flurry of comments, but I got no response. The discussion has pretty much veered away from the actual merits of the list as it currently stands. :-(

(no subject)

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